Firelite Tech Support

  • Subscribe to our RSS feed.
  • Twitter
  • StumbleUpon
  • Reddit
  • Facebook
  • Digg

Sunday, 10 February 2013

Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II

Posted on 23:00 by Unknown
In my first post on the subject, I linked to a video produced by Soto Outdoors showing their Microregulator Stove (OD-1R) in a "burn off" against a non-regulator stove.  The video seems to imply that there is some advantage to having a regulator valved stove in cold weather over a conventional needle valved stove.

There's just one problem here:  It doesn't make sense from the standpoint of physics and chemistry.  I mean, the relative pressure in a canister is a function of the fuel inside, the pressure outside, and the temperature.  Compressed gases, such as those in the canister of a backpacking stove, follow certain rules of physics and chemistry.  Changing the valve type won't cause that pressure to change.  I've talked to engineers, chemists, and physicists.  No one seems to think that a regulator valve will be of any benefit in cold conditions. 

So, I thought I'd try a cold test of my own to see what I might find out.  I define cold here, in the context of an upright canister stove, as a fuel temperature (not necessarily air temperature) less than ten Fahrenheit degrees (about 5 Celsius degrees) above the boiling point of the fuel.

Now, in Soto's test, we don't really know how cold the water is, we don't know what's in those fuel canisters, etc.  In other words, we really don't know much about the test conditions.  So, before I go on, let me lay out my test conditions.  Hopefully this section isn't too boring.  :)

Testing Conditions
  • Elevation:  Approximately 6,000'/1825m.
  • Temperature:  31F/-0.5C as measured on a digital probe type cook's thermometer.  No calibration was employed on the thermometer.
  • Conditions:  Light wind.  No precipitation.
  • Fuel used:  100% n-butane.  No isobutane or propane was used.
  • Air pressure:  Unmeasured.
  • Canister temperature at initiation of test:  Unmeasured but assumed to be ambient.  The canisters were left out for a considerable time while I did various things at the location I stopped at, including setting up the test. 
Important Chemistry and Stove Facts
  • Boiling point of n-butane at sea level:  31F/-0.5C
  • Boiling point of n-butane at 6,000'/1800m:  About 19F/-7C
  • Normally, the temperature of a compressed gas fuel needs to be about 10F (or 5C) degrees above the boiling point of that fuel in order for a canister stove to have decent operating pressure.
  • Releasing gas out of the canister causes the canister's internal temperature to drop.  In other words, an upright canister stove's fuel gets colder as the stove operates.
Conduct of Test

I started both stoves, the Monatauk Gnat first, then the Soto Microregulator.  Once both stoves were lit, I opened both valves to their maximum open position and let them burn.  Both stoves were on top of a Ridgerest closed cell foam pad. 

I let the video run for a combined total of about 20 minutes.  The "short" video clip below is from the last three or so minutes of that approximately 20 minute period.  The "long" video posted in the appendix was started before the burn began and extends for about 17 minutes.



Discussion
I started the test at a temperature of 31F/-0.5C, about 12 degrees Fahrenheit above the boiling point of the fuel.  The flame's sizes show that there was reasonably good pressure at the start of the test.

The Microregulator had a much larger initial flame than the Gnat.  Obviously, it would have been a better test to have two nearly identical stoves, one with a conventional needle valve and the other with a regulator valve, but I had no way to get two such stoves.  However, even without closely matched stoves, one can assess whether or not a stove's flame has been significantly impacted by the temperature. 

Errata:  In the video you may hear me say something to the effect that the ambient temperature is equal to the boiling point of the fuel.  While that would have been true at sea level, the video was shot at ~6000'/1825m elevation, therefore the ambient temperature was actually about twelve degrees above the boiling point of the fuel.

In the video, I said something about the canisters being perhaps above the ambient temperature because they had been in my pack.  On further reflection, I realized that I had taken the canisters out well before the test was started.  The canisters were resting on a snow free metal surface that had been in the open all day.  The canisters were undoubtedly at ambient temperature at the start of the test.

Observation
At the end of the test period, both stoves had similarly sized, very small flames.  The Soto Microregulator offered no discernible advantage in cold conditions, as I define cold (see above definition).

Concluding Remarks
No criticism of the Soto Microregulator stove is intended here.  It is one of the nicest built upright canister stoves that I have.  It is craftsmanship at its finest.  Again, my only point here is that I could not establish that there was any advantage to a regulator valved stove in cold conditions as I define cold, above.

I'm not sure what Soto was trying to show in their video.  Soto is based in Japan.  There may be some language barrier here.  People here in the US have taken Soto's video to mean that the Soto Microregulator has an advantage in cold weather.  I could discern no such advantage in cold conditions (as I define cold) nor is there anything in the chemistry or physics of either the stove or the fuel that would suggest such an advantage.

I would be very open to hearing from Soto a response to this blog post.  In particular, I would love for them to describe in detail a set of conditions under which a regulator valve stove might have an advantage over a needle valved stove, an advantage that I might be able to corroborate through testing.

I thank you for joining me on another Adventure in Stoving,

HJ


Appendix

In Soto's test, they let the stoves burn for about five minutes.  In the "long" video, below, you might want to watch the first six minutes.  I start the stoves about a minute into the video, therefore six minutes into the video is about five minutes of burn time.  I think you'll see that at five minutes into the burn, both stoves have significantly reduced flame sizes as compared to their respective flame sizes at the start of the test. 


Email ThisBlogThis!Share to XShare to FacebookShare to Pinterest
Posted in | No comments
Newer Post Older Post Home

0 comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)

Popular Posts

  • The Kovea LPG (Propane) Adapter
    I recently picked something up that turns out to be pretty useful:  A Kovea LPG (Propane) Adapter.  This adapter allows one to run a standar...
  • Refilling Coleman PowerMax Canisters
    It's no secret that I like Coleman PowerMax gas canisters.  Note:  PowerMax canisters are called  just plain "Max" in some loc...
  • Stove of the Week: MSR Whisperlite Universal
    As previously announced and reported here on Adventures in Stoving, MSR is coming out with a new version of their Whisperlite stove, the W...
  • Stove of the Week: MSR Rapidfire
    OK, so this week's stove is a bit of a "sleeper" in the sense that it's not a stove that you would expect a lot from -- un...
  • The SuperGnat (Gaz *and* Threaded!)
    There are two types of modern gas canisters for backpacking (see  Backpacking Gas Canisters 101 ). Generally, stoves built for one type of c...
  • Stove of the Week: Hank Roberts Mini Stove, Mark III
    I happen to like my old Hank Roberts stove, a stove that dates back to the 1960's. It's in very nice condition. I have the Mark I...
  • The Hank Roberts Stove -- With a Proper Canister
    What's one of the most enduring designs of gas stoves? The Hank Roberts mini stove.  It's compact design truly makes it a pocket sto...
  • Stove of the Week: The Caldera Cone
    This week's stove is the Caldera Cone with 12-10 stove from Trail Designs . My review of the stove is available at Seattle Backpackers M...
  • 100% Propane for Backpacking? YES!
    What's the "holy grail" of canister gas for cold weather backpacking?  100% propane.  Propane is the best.  Plain butane won...
  • Stove of the Week: Primus Omnifuel
    If you want a stove that runs like a Swiss watch, then the Primus Omnifuel is your stove. It's precision engineering at it's best.  ...

Categories

  • 100% propane
  • 12-10
  • 12-10 burner
  • 2012
  • adapter
  • alcohol burner
  • alcohol fuel
  • alcohol stove
  • all fuel
  • all fuel stove
  • Appalachian Trail
  • AT
  • back country
  • backpacker
  • backpacking
  • backpacking canister
  • backpacking espresso
  • backpacking fuel
  • backpacking fuel prices
  • backpacking stove
  • beginner stove
  • best alcohol
  • best gas cold
  • best gas cold weather
  • best stove
  • blended fuel
  • blog status
  • boil
  • borde benzin brenner
  • borde bomb
  • borde stove
  • BPL
  • BPL Firelite
  • BPL Firelite 550
  • Bush Buddy
  • Bush Buddy Ultra
  • bushbuddy
  • bushbuddy ultra
  • butane
  • butane adapter
  • butane refill
  • butane stove
  • Caldera
  • Caldera Caddy
  • caldera cone
  • Caldera Cone Ti-Tri
  • Caldera Inferno
  • California Campfire Permit
  • Camp 5
  • camping
  • Camping Gaz
  • canister
  • canister cold
  • canister explosion
  • canister formats
  • canister gas
  • canister gas cold
  • canister refilling
  • canister stove
  • canisters
  • cartridge refill
  • cartridge stove
  • cat can stove
  • Cheap Deals
  • cleaning wood soot
  • Clikstand
  • cold
  • cold weather
  • cold weather gas
  • Coleman
  • coleman fuel
  • Coleman Max
  • Coleman PowerMax
  • Coleman Xpedition
  • Coleman Xpert
  • Coleman Xtreme
  • Crux
  • denatured alcohol
  • disk stove
  • EFI
  • Esbit
  • Espresso Star
  • ethanol
  • ethyl
  • Evernew
  • expedition
  • extreme cold
  • fast boil times
  • FeatherFire
  • fuel
  • fuel cube
  • fuel gauge
  • fuel price
  • fuel prices
  • fuel quantity
  • fuel tablet
  • gas
  • gas cartridge
  • gas cold weather
  • gas explosion
  • gas formats
  • gas gauge
  • gas refill
  • Gas stove
  • Gaz
  • gear
  • gear review
  • Gerry Stove
  • getting started
  • GigaPower
  • Gnat
  • GS-100
  • Hank Roberts
  • Hank Roberts Mini Mark III
  • Hank Roberts Mini Stove
  • heat exchanger
  • heat shield
  • HEET
  • hexamine
  • hexie
  • hiking
  • hybrid stove
  • Inferno option
  • integrated canister stove
  • Internationale
  • inverted canister
  • inverted gas
  • isobutane stove
  • JetBoil
  • JetBoil Cooking
  • JetBoil danger
  • JetBoil failure
  • Jetboil fry pan
  • JetBoil melt
  • Jetboil omelet
  • Jetboil omelette
  • Jetboil pan
  • JetBoil problem
  • JetBoil Sol
  • JetBoil Sol Ti
  • jetboil Sumo
  • KB-1006
  • kerosene
  • Kovea
  • Kovea Camp 4
  • Kovea Camp 5
  • Kovea Moonwalker
  • lighter
  • liquid feed
  • liquid feed gas
  • liquid fuel
  • Mark III
  • Max
  • melted heat exchanger
  • methanol
  • metho
  • metho stove
  • meths
  • meths stove
  • methyl
  • methylated spirits
  • micro regulator
  • micro rocket
  • microregulator
  • microrocket
  • mini bull
  • Mini Bull Designs
  • Mini Mark III
  • Mini Stove
  • minibull
  • Monotauk
  • Monotauk Gnat
  • Moonwalker
  • MSR
  • MSR canister
  • MSR Espresso Star
  • MSR micro rocket
  • MSR microrocket
  • MSR pocket rocket
  • MSR pocketrocket
  • MSR Rapidfire
  • msr reactor
  • MSR Simmerlite
  • MSR super fuel
  • MSR SuperFly
  • MSR Titan kettle
  • MSR Whisperlite
  • MSR whisperlite universal
  • MSR Windpro
  • MSR Windpro II
  • msr xgk
  • muka
  • muka od1-np
  • muka od1np
  • muka stove
  • Muka ストーブ
  • multi fuel
  • multifuel
  • n-butane
  • new
  • Nion 3
  • Nova
  • od-1np
  • od-1R
  • od1np
  • od1r
  • Omni Fuel
  • Omnifuel
  • open jet stove
  • Optimus
  • Optimus Crux
  • Optimus Nova
  • pack stove
  • PackaFeather
  • petrol
  • petrol stove
  • piezo
  • piezoelectric
  • pocket rocket
  • pocketrocket
  • pots
  • Powermax
  • PowerMax refilling
  • practical
  • pre shaker jet
  • pre-heat loop
  • pre-Katadyn
  • price
  • Primus
  • Primus Omnifuel
  • propane
  • propane adapter
  • propane backpacking
  • propane stove
  • radiation shield
  • Rapidfire
  • reactor
  • refill canister
  • refilling backpacking
  • refilling butane
  • remote canister
  • remote gas
  • review
  • side laying canister
  • simmer control
  • simmering
  • simmering alcohol
  • Simmerlite
  • snow melting
  • Snow Peak
  • SOD-300
  • SOD-371
  • SOD300
  • SOD371
  • Sol
  • Sol Ti
  • solid fuel
  • soto
  • soto microregulator
  • soto muka
  • soto od-1R
  • soto od1-np
  • soto od1np
  • Soto pocket torch
  • stove
  • stove fuel
  • stove review
  • super fuel
  • SuperFly
  • superfuel
  • SuperGnat
  • threaded canisters
  • ti wing
  • Ti-Tri
  • Tibetan Ti Wing Stove
  • tips
  • Titan kettle
  • titanium
  • top mount canister stove
  • top mounted canister stove
  • Trail Designs
  • Trangia
  • two burner
  • ultralight
  • Universal gas
  • unsafe
  • upright canister stove
  • warning
  • whisperlite
  • whisperlite universal
  • white gas
  • white gas stove
  • white gasoline
  • wind
  • Windpro
  • Windpro II
  • windscreen
  • windscreens
  • wood burner
  • wood cooking clean up
  • wood gas
  • wood gasification
  • wood stove
  • XGK
  • xgk ii
  • Xpedition
  • ボルドーバーナー

Blog Archive

  • ▼  2013 (18)
    • ►  May (2)
    • ►  April (5)
    • ►  March (6)
    • ▼  February (5)
      • Canister Gas Stove Reliability & Maintenance
      • The New Lightweight Champion
      • Advantages (?) of Regulator Valved Stoves, Part II
      • The BobCat Stove System -- Part I
      • Blog Status, 3 Feb 2013
  • ►  2012 (54)
    • ►  September (2)
    • ►  June (3)
    • ►  April (5)
    • ►  March (12)
    • ►  February (13)
    • ►  January (19)
  • ►  2011 (65)
    • ►  December (15)
    • ►  November (13)
    • ►  October (7)
    • ►  September (3)
    • ►  August (5)
    • ►  July (2)
    • ►  June (3)
    • ►  May (2)
    • ►  April (1)
    • ►  March (5)
    • ►  February (5)
    • ►  January (4)
Powered by Blogger.

About Me

Unknown
View my complete profile